Comments on: Notes for Michael http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/ Everyone has a right to my opinions Sun, 20 Jul 2008 18:04:33 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Matt Munro http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93887 Matt Munro Thu, 09 Aug 2007 11:37:06 +0000 http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93887 Robert - You are correct that I am exaggerating for effect (someone has to act as a counterpoint to the liberal consensus !) but it is a common perception that the police are so mired in paperwork, targets and the "process" of law enforcement (as opposed to the practice) that they are by and large incapable of acting as anything other than paramilitary social workers and state sponsored bureaucrats. For example on the radio this morning I heard that police are considering charges against a man because a burgular fell from his balcony. On the news last night, rather then making arrests, the Police are complaining to offcom about a channel 4 programme which alledged racism, sexism, homophobia and incitement to murder at mosques - since when were the Police arbiters of TV programme editing ? And witness their inefectiveness at tackling rising gun crime in London and Manchester. They seem to lack direction and confidence, particularly in adressing crime comitted by sections of the population outside the "mainstream" group. The tragic irony of this is that most criminals operate close to home and the victims are invariably from the same community. Personally I would prefer a rough round the edges police force which occasionally pissed people off, but maintained order, to a sensitive one that did neither. After all, what is the point of a non authoritarian police force ? Good luck to your brother though - I admire anyone that takes on a challenge and is willing to do something positive for society, even if society often makes it difficult. Robert - You are correct that I am exaggerating for effect (someone has to act as a counterpoint to the liberal consensus !) but it is a common perception that the police are so mired in paperwork, targets and the “process” of law enforcement (as opposed to the practice) that they are by and large incapable of acting as anything other than paramilitary social workers and state sponsored bureaucrats.
For example on the radio this morning I heard that police are considering charges against a man because a burgular fell from his balcony. On the news last night, rather then making arrests, the Police are complaining to offcom about a channel 4 programme which alledged racism, sexism, homophobia and incitement to murder at mosques - since when were the Police arbiters of TV programme editing ? And witness their inefectiveness at tackling rising gun crime in London and Manchester. They seem to lack direction and confidence, particularly in adressing crime comitted by sections of the population outside the “mainstream” group. The tragic irony of this is that most criminals operate close to home and the victims are invariably from the same community. Personally I would prefer a rough round the edges police force which occasionally pissed people off, but maintained order, to a sensitive one that did neither. After all, what is the point of a non authoritarian police force ?

Good luck to your brother though - I admire anyone that takes on a challenge and is willing to do something positive for society, even if society often makes it difficult.

]]> By: Grannie Rose http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93880 Grannie Rose Thu, 09 Aug 2007 07:42:04 +0000 http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93880 This is an interesting discussion. I like to see the police as members of the public who have been given special powers just as psychiatrists are given special powers to detain people who are mentally ill. Police are put in a privileged position and must use their powers thoughtfully and responsibly if they are to maintain our trust. I don't think their task is made easier by giving them "targets" which encourages them to abuse their powers. On a personal note all of my not infrequent dealings with the police have led me to view them in a very positive light. I am aware this may be seen as naive but I think you should speak as you find. No doubt there are bent and malignant coppers as there are bent and malignant everthing else . Not all doctors are Dr Shipman even though the way the goverment are acting lead you to believe they are are (but that is another story) not all coppers are bent and/or abuse their powers. The police are victims of stereotyping and I do think calling them agents of the state even though this phrase in itself is not incorrect but is not helpful in this respect. So good luck to your brother and I hope his honour and ethical and moral values won't be seriously challenged. This is an interesting discussion. I like to see the police as members of the public who have been given special powers just as psychiatrists are given special powers to detain people who are mentally ill. Police are put in a privileged position and must use their powers thoughtfully and responsibly if they are to maintain our trust. I don’t think their task is made easier by giving them “targets” which encourages them to abuse their powers.

On a personal note all of my not infrequent dealings with the police have led me to view them in a very positive light. I am aware this may be seen as naive but I think you should speak as you find. No doubt there are bent and malignant coppers as there are bent and malignant everthing else . Not all doctors are Dr Shipman even though the way the goverment are acting lead you to believe they are are (but that is another story) not all coppers are bent and/or abuse their powers. The police are victims of stereotyping and I do think calling them agents of the state even though this phrase in itself is not incorrect but is not helpful in this respect.

So good luck to your brother and I hope his honour and ethical and moral values won’t be seriously challenged.

]]> By: Grannie Rose http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93879 Grannie Rose Thu, 09 Aug 2007 07:20:27 +0000 http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93879 Is Clarice right about ID cards being a done deal? Is Clarice right about ID cards being a done deal?

]]> By: Robert http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93820 Robert Wed, 08 Aug 2007 12:27:59 +0000 http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93820 Matt, you are beginning to sound very totalitarian! You perceive everywhere a creeping ideology, and prescribe illiberal fear tactics as the solution. Rather than make accusations that would endorse <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law" rel="nofollow">Godwin's Law</a>... I instead accuse you of facetiousness and hyperbole. And as to the substance of your point - come off it. I concede that the police are not <em><a href="http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/06/photographing-kids/" rel="nofollow">immune</a></em> from misplaced political correctness. But it is not the biggest danger. The links and examples given above (de Menezes, DNA database, longer detentions, etc) are evidence of many things, but Political Correctness is not one of them. Matt, you are beginning to sound very totalitarian! You perceive everywhere a creeping ideology, and prescribe illiberal fear tactics as the solution. Rather than make accusations that would endorse Godwin’s Law… I instead accuse you of facetiousness and hyperbole.

And as to the substance of your point - come off it. I concede that the police are not immune from misplaced political correctness. But it is not the biggest danger. The links and examples given above (de Menezes, DNA database, longer detentions, etc) are evidence of many things, but Political Correctness is not one of them.

]]> By: Matt Munro http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93798 Matt Munro Wed, 08 Aug 2007 10:01:54 +0000 http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93798 I think they're agents of political correctness, they long ago lost interst in anything but hassling motorists and litter louts. All they seem to do nowadays is collect statistics and make videos of crime being comitted. Crime prevention and detection are too judgemental and old fashioned it would seem. We need to be policed as the Cubans are, there are 3 visible types of police in Havana, they are all armed and they are literally on every street corner. Result - next to no crime. Compare this to the UK cities which increasingly resemble the wild west with teenagers shooting each other at will. No amount of sociological theory about wealth distribution or social justice will persuade me that there is any other viable solution. Iron fist in the Iron glove, its the only way forward. I think they’re agents of political correctness, they long ago lost interst in anything but hassling motorists and litter louts. All they seem to do nowadays is collect statistics and make videos of crime being comitted. Crime prevention and detection are too judgemental and old fashioned it would seem.
We need to be policed as the Cubans are, there are 3 visible types of police in Havana, they are all armed and they are literally on every street corner. Result - next to no crime. Compare this to the UK cities which increasingly resemble the wild west with teenagers shooting each other at will. No amount of sociological theory about wealth distribution or social justice will persuade me that there is any other viable solution. Iron fist in the Iron glove, its the only way forward.

]]> By: Robert http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93533 Robert Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:46:16 +0000 http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93533 Are you suggesting that I am simply mistaken about my conception of what a police-man is; or that this conception (right or wrong) is symptomatic of a wider change in relationship between the people and the police? I'm obviously not in the police myself, so the former is obviously a possibility. Although after watching films like <a href="http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/06/10/taking-liberties/" rel="nofollow">Taking Liberties</a> and hearing how the blame was shifted around in the Jean Charles de Menezes case, I cannot help but feel that "agent of the state" it is the most appropriate term. Further, I'm pretty sure that the police are vested with powers that ordinary citizens lack, which doesn't really chime with Peel's point that: <blockquote>police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.</blockquote> Alternatively, it sounds very sinister, but if one argues that "The State" is/should be synonymous with "The People" then it becomes less threatening, and more in line with Peel's vision. Either way, I think my paradoxes hold, no? Are you suggesting that I am simply mistaken about my conception of what a police-man is; or that this conception (right or wrong) is symptomatic of a wider change in relationship between the people and the police?

I’m obviously not in the police myself, so the former is obviously a possibility.
Although after watching films like Taking Liberties and hearing how the blame was shifted around in the Jean Charles de Menezes case, I cannot help but feel that “agent of the state” it is the most appropriate term.

Further, I’m pretty sure that the police are vested with powers that ordinary citizens lack, which doesn’t really chime with Peel’s point that:

police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

Alternatively, it sounds very sinister, but if one argues that “The State” is/should be synonymous with “The People” then it becomes less threatening, and more in line with Peel’s vision.

Either way, I think my paradoxes hold, no?

]]> By: Cleanthes http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93531 Cleanthes Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:03:24 +0000 http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93531 An agent of the state???? That, Robert, in one succint phrase is the most daming indictment of the damage that has been done to the ethos of the Police over the last few decades. Read Peel's Principles <a href="http://www.theselectsociety.com/infuns/?p=101" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Especially no.7: <i>"Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. "</i> An agent of the state????

That, Robert, in one succint phrase is the most daming indictment of the damage that has been done to the ethos of the Police over the last few decades.

Read Peel’s Principles here. Especially no.7:
“Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence. “

]]> By: Clarice http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93343 Clarice Sun, 05 Aug 2007 00:15:30 +0000 http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2007/08/05/notes-for-michael/#comment-93343 Did you know id cards are a done deal now? I gather they were stealthified in through the back door. Please somebody tell me I'm wrong... Did you know id cards are a done deal now? I gather they were stealthified in through the back door. Please somebody tell me I’m wrong…

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